sci.physics.electromag

On 10 feb, 03:01, "amdx" wrote:
> "Wimpie" wrote in message
>
> news:8d0be12a-022a-4cb7-91e5-e27d73961343@e23g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On 8 feb, 23:22, "amdx" wrote:
> >> "Wimpie" wrote in message
>
> >>news:0d128995-7202-4bf4-9048-0f112711c2cc@p69g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> > On 8 feb, 17:29, John Larkin
> >> > wrote:
> >> >> On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 04:36:56 -0800 (PST), Wimpie
> >> >> wrote:
>
> >> >> >On 7 feb, 21:05, "amdx" wrote:
> >> >> >> I have a friend asking for waveguide information, in reference to
> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> proposed PCB layout on this
> >> >> >> url:http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-4/986073/TEAlaserellipsoidtest.jpg
>
> >> >> >> He asks the following;
> >> >> >> .......................................................................................
> >> >> >> What I need is the time-delay between spark generation and
> >> >> >> sympathetic
> >> >> >> spark occurrence,
> >> >> >> which will depend on spacing D and relative dielectric constant of
> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> board
> >> >> >> material. Another way to ask is "what is the propagation velocity
> >> >> >> within
> >> >> >> such a waveguide?", or "what is the wavelength of the EM energy
> >> >> >> within
> >> >> >> such
> >> >> >> a
> >> >> >> waveguide?".
>
> >> >> >> There will be a LOWER "cutoff frequency" for such propagation, too.
> >> >> >> So
> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> sparks will have to be fast.
> >> >> >> .....................................................................................
> >> >> >> I think he's looking for the math to lead him in the right
> >> >> >> direction.
> >> >> >> Thanks, Mike
>
> >> >> >Hello,
>
> >> >> >The propagation velocity is determined by "epsilon r" (c0/sqrt(er)).
> >> >> >It is in fact a parallel plate transmission line (with oval shape and
> >> >> >some shorts). For TEM propagation, there is no cut off frequency
> >> >> >(even DC power can be transported with a parallel plate transmission
> >> >> >line).
>
> >> >> >In you situation only the shorts (reflectors?) will impede low
> >> >> >frequency energy transport.
>
> >> >> >At wavelengths << size of structure, there will be focusing because
> >> >> >of
> >> >> >reflection on the open edges. But one thing that appears strange to
> >> >> >me. The horizontal distance between the spark gap and the reflecting
> >> >> >short is not large with respect to the dielectric thickness.
>
> >> >> >Because of the short horizontal distance, only very high frequency
> >> >> >components of the discharge current will be effectively launched in
> >> >> >this structure (in case of 1.6mm thickness, er=4, you should think of
> >> >> >50 GHz). The longest wavelength will be about 4*(hor. distance from
> >> >> >gap to short). In that case there will be significant radiation
> >> >> >losses
> >> >> >because of dielectric thickness in not very small with respect to
> >> >> >wavelength. So you might consider shorted edges.
>
> >> >> >As most of the discharge energy is in relative low frequency, I doubt
> >> >> >whether you get sufficient power in the wave-guide to get a real
> >> >> >spark
> >> >> >at the right side of the PCB. A design challenge is to find a good
> >> >> >structure to efficiently couple the spark energy into the wave guide
> >> >> >(probably via high voltage coaxial entry?).
>
> >> >> >Best regards,
>
> >> >> >Wim
> >> >> >PA3DJS
> >> >> >www.tetech.nl(Dutch)
>
> >> >> I occasionally add an SMA footprint to a multilayer pcb layout, so I
> >> >> can TDR the power planes. I've never observed edge-of-board
> >> >> reflections, presumably because the FR4/copper structure is pretty
> >> >> lossy at the sorts of frequencies involved.
>
> >> >> On the board we just finished, I have a 2.5 volt power plane, about
> >> >> 5x7 inches, 12 mils from ground. One test SMA is in the center, one
> >> >> sort of near a corner. So I can TDR and TDT the combo, and see how
> >> >> things propagate and/or reflect inside the planes. I'll do that in a
> >> >> week or so and post if anything interesting shows up.
>
> >> >> I agree that the proposed board will have no useful focussing effect.
>
> >> >> John
>
> >> > Hello John,
>
> >> > I would expect reflections (in general when dielectric thickness <<
> >> > wavelength) because the edges behave like an open transmission line
> >> > with not that high radiation loss. Of course dielectric losses are
> >> > present, but in the frequency domain you can measure standing wave
> >> > patterns at large patches over a larger ground plane (for example a
> >> > halve wave patch antenna).
>
> >> > The problem with the setup as given in the drawing is that the
> >> > dielectric thickness is no longer small with respect to 0.25 lambda.
> >> > In addition (assuming 1.6mm dielectric), the frequency for effective
> >> > launching of a wave will be in the extremely high GHz range. Shorting
> >> > the edges will give less radiation loss because of end effects and the
> >> > dielectric, but doesn't reduce dielectric losses.
>
> >> > Maybe they want to do the experiment on low loss dielectric (PTFE,
> >> > ceramic, etc). The concept isn't new (with shorted edges), it is
> >> > used in microwave antennas to generate a continuous lines source
> >> > emitter (fan beam radiator, I have a small one for 10 GHz).
>
> >> > I am looking forward to your TDR/TDT results.
>
> >> > Best regards,
>
> >> > Wim
> >> > PA3DJS
>
> >> Hi Wim and all,
> >> Take a look at this later drawing and see if my friend is any
> >> closer.http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-4/986073/ellipsoidtest3.jpg
> >> Your feedback has been encouraging,
> >> Thanks, Mike
>
> > Hello Mike,
>
> > To me this looks better. Now you don't have dielectric loss and
> > dispersion and because of the metallic walls, you don't have any
> > radiation loss. John has doubts about the coherence of the
> > reflection, so probably you should figure this out first.
>
> > In fact, the height (B) can be rather large (so above 0.25lambda). The
> > walls perfectly reflect TEM waves. When you have B>0.5lambda, it
> > depends on the coupling from the spark gap to the waveguide and
> > construction of receiving spark gap whether it will work. The
> > transmitting gap must generate TEM waves and the receiving gap must be
> > able to "guide" all the TEM energy into the gap. When B is around
> > 0.25lambda or less, it easier to generate mostly TEM waves and to
> > receive the TEM waves (by the receiving spark gap).
>
> > When your complete sphere is many wavelengths large (for example B =
> > 5mm, width 300mm) and the distance between the transmitting and
> > receiving gap is also large, you may remove the "reflecting" shorts.
> > As the received E field via the direct path will be negligible with
> > respect to the E field received by all the single reflection paths.
>
> > When the coherence question is demystified, the next point will be the
> > construction of the transmitting spark gap and receiving spark gap.
>
> > How you are going to check whether you get a spark at the receiver?
> > What is your actual application for this experiment?
>
> > Best regards,
>
> > Wim
> > PA3DJS
> >www.tetech.nl
>
> The proposed use is to adjust the phase of the pulse going to a TEA
> laser gap. Take a look at the next drawing.
> http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-4/986073/TEAlaserellipsoidtest2.jpg
>
> Thanks, Mike

Hello Mike,

Thank you for your feedback with regards to the application.

I'm not familiar with the details of the pulse required for such laser
devices (I am in electronics and antennas). When your goal is to get
a high voltage wave front at the edge of the half ellipsoid, the
ellipsoid is not the preferred shape. In addition, because the wave
fronts do not concentrate as in the full ellipse example, now the
direct path may lead to premature discharge initiation.

Because of the Marx generator, I expect that you will use really high
voltage.

Good luck with the experiments,

Wim
PA3DJS
www.tetech.nl