sci.physics.electromag

"maxwell" wrote in message
news:b75f2b5f-d4cf-4d49-89f0-3ee19dea9680@c19g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 22, 10:31 am, "FrediFizzx" wrote:
> "maxwell" wrote in message
>
> news:bbf0658f-d0a9-483b-a643-98871cc2ae89@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 20, 11:51 pm, "FrediFizzx" wrote:
>
>
>
> > "maxwell" wrote in message
>
> >news:22a9b163-87e8-4a83-a2e1-21a176f97f13@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
> > On Mar 16, 9:14 am, Benj wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 16, 2:46 am, khrapko...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > Dear Benj: What's the matter? What's the thread? Fields are
> > > > obviously
> > > > real and mathematics is an idea.
> > > > Radi
>
> > > Dear Radi,
> > > Forces are obviously real and fields are a mathematical idea.
> > > Benj
>
> > Sorry, guys, even forces also not real. You are just extrapolating
> > from the time-averaged muscular sensations we all experience. Force
> > is also a mathematically defined concept (see Newton's Principia).
> > --------------------------------
>
> > Maxwell, you are quickly going off the deep end. ;-) Pulleys and
> > weights can be used to measure forces; no muscles need to be
> > involved.
> > The mathematical description of forces seem to fit the reality very
> > well.
>
>
> Not at all. Pulleys etc rely on a theory of gravity that IS linked to
> our macro sensations of effort. Incidentally, why do our muscles get
> tired when they hold up a weight that never moves? No displacement,
> no work, no energy - right?
> ------------------------------
>
> Well, it doesn't have to necessarily be "linked to macro sensations of
> effort". The apple fell on Newton's head. ;-) Macroscopically forces
> are pretty real. Now the concept of energy gets to be fairly
> mathematical. But fundamentally it all boils down to the interactions
> of quantum objects. Doesn't it?


No, Fred. It begins with classical objects, namely us. Our concepts
are generated from the macro world. The micro world of the quantum is
an abstraction for which we have no direct knowledge - that's why the
theory is statistical. The scaling from the electron to macro objects
like cells is about 10**15, which leaves a lot of room for complexity
(and ignorance!).
-------------------------------------------

Sorry.. yes, Maxwell. Tell that to the HEP experimenters. They also
have built a new microscope that is going online soon. We actually have
pretty good knowledge of the micro quantum world. Perhaps you have been
a bit stuck in ancient history too much? ;-) Anywise, from my
perspective the totality of physics that we know is emergent from the
interactions of quantum objects. The only real big mystery left is
hbar. See Volovik's "The Universe in a Helium Droplet".

Best,

Fred Diether
Co-moderator sci.physics.foundations