humanities.philosophy.objectivism

On Feb 21, 10:27 am, Agent Cooper wrote:
> On Feb 20, 3:47 pm, Potroast wrote:
>
> > I must have missed the speech where Obama said "bomb our allies".
>
> Well, he didn't use the word "allies." He was referring to Al Qaeda
> camps in Waziristan. I guess these were the allies Charles was talking
> about.
>
>
http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN0132206420070801http://snip
url.com/203a0
>
> These Al Qaeda camps, of course, are in Pakistan's sovereign
> territory. Maybe that's the ally Charles was thinking of: the people
> who brought you (1) the Taliban, and (2) nuclear technology for North
> Korea and Iran. Gotta make nice with *those* folks, yup. Remember
> "From this day forward, any nation that continues to harbor or support
> terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile
> regime." (Bush, 9/20/01). I just hate it when instead of *solutions*
> we get mere *words*, don't you?

Look. I've never disagreed with you that radical Islam is not a
potential threat. Try and keep in mind the Ottoman Turks occupied
Greece 400 years and that it's been non-stop with them throughout
recorded history. Nor am I naive that attackers will go away simply
because I am against lethal force.

I'm somebody that grew up with stories of my alleged ancestors
ruthlessly slaughtering their own children seeking perfection. I think
we want to improve on that mentality or we will doom outselves to
perpetual wars and probably extinction. My pacifism is an ideal not a
present day reality...but someone needs to keep that flame alive. May
as well be the guy that really thinks technology can one day get us to
this place. I know the killing will go on for now....just like Bob
knows they will be no genocide but still plants the bar far far over
to the right.... to make those in the middle willing to leave "a few"
feel reasonable about their actions.

Where I mainly seem to butt heads here is their automatic
assumption that we need to go about this the "old fashioned way"
before exhausting EVERY other solution first. We once were primates
too. Do we really need to be nostalgic about it and throw our feces at
each other? Can't we move on from that and try something new?

It is both cowardly and immoral to shoot first simply because they
don't like us, or because they currently have less output, or can't
adequately fight back. It is especially wrong to blame them for
fighting back when exactly how many unwanted US military bases are
scattered across the middle east? How many illegal settlement in
Palestine have US taxpayer dollars funded? I know you can blow their
shit out of them and shut them up in approximately 60 minutes.... and
mass murders happened throughout history too. And they usually got
away with it too. And no doubt they wrote "narratives" for themselves
afterwards describing how heroic they were and how their enemies had
it coming to them.

In the end though... they were failures to some degree because they
were not clever enough to achieve their ends without resorting to
killing someone.(the ideal)

The meat of the argument coming from the right is "if we simply
withdraw they are coming to get us" right? Wasn't the same true of
Vietnam where they all wanted to kill Americans too? Didn't Vietnamese
resort to terrorism too? Why is it today Vietnam isn't at war with
the US? I say let them come. If they do, they know very well to
expect.

Great Britain's military presence across the world at some point
became no longer sustainable without crossing certain moral thresholds
of "preemption" that the English were no longer prepared to cross. The
Germans were prepared to cross them to build their empire. America
today is faced with the same sort of decision.

My advice continues to be....

A. bring the troops home

B. Fix the Palestine/Israel situation already. Don't abandon Israel
but tell them politely privately that if they are incapable of doing
it themselves by so and so date... the rest of the world will fix the
issue for them (including the John Hancock of all Muslim nations in
the region) If anybody in Aipac or a fundy tries to play the
persecution card....fire back that they are unpatriotic traitors for
putting Israeli expansion ahead of American security interests.

If you do these things, I really believe relations with Europe and the
rest of the world will mend slowly naturally. We'll go back to the
basic arguing between the left/right thing but in a slightly less
vitriolic manner than today. We don't hate you. We don't hate Israel.
But if you're going to go around the world unilaterally blasting
things to crap... we can't trust you. You have to choose.

Everyone knows America didn't really lose...it just showed a little
human compassion based on the concerns of Americans and allies alike
(like it did in Vietnam). They'll be more in a talking mood after a
generation where big/bad America is gone and they are still living
mostly like crap. Oil is a non-issue. They'll keep selling it to you
as they need the money to keep themselves from starving.

The Iranian government don't really have any real non-Islamic
friends in the world (other than two-bit dictatorship) and will remain
so as long as they are oppressive to minorities. They will be
completely isolated on all fronts Europe, China and Russia certainly
don't want religious nuts. While they are a potential threat to
destroy crap later on, I'm not worried about Islam overrunning the
world ideologically. If anything Islam will be a poster child to turn
to atheism. (assuming the sensible moderates on the US right and left
stop "appeasing" their own religious crazies)

If you check my posting history I did say this was another cold war
quite awhile ago. Granted it's the long scary route and there will be
incidents, but this is the only route that seems somewhat humane to
me. To paraphrase Leonidas....the missiles are always waiting for
those who want to come get them.