alt.education

"Joe Irvin" wrote:


>How about these anti-intellectuals

More creationist bullshit!
The following people had a WIDE range of theological belief and most WEREN'T
FUNDAMENTALIST Christians.

Fundamentalist Christians would probably NOT welcome most of these people in
their church!



> Johann Kepler


He was a German mathematician, astronomer and astrologer. ... Instead, he
turned his attention to chronology and "harmony," the numerological
relationships among music, mathematics and the physical world, and their
astrological consequences. By assuming the Earth to possess a soul (a
property he would later invoke to explain how the sun causes the motion of
planets), he established a speculative system connecting astrological
aspects and astronomical distances to weather and other earthly phenomena
... Kepler's primary obligation as imperial mathematician was to provide
astrological advice to the emperor. .... he had been casting detailed
horoscopes for friends, family and patrons since his time as a student in
Tübingen. In addition to horoscopes for allies and foreign leaders, the
emperor sought Kepler's advice in times of political trouble (though
Kepler's recommendations were based more on common sense than the stars).
... Officially, the only acceptable religious doctrines in Prague were
Catholic and Utraquist, but Kepler's position in the imperial court allowed
him to practice his Lutheran faith unhindered.


> Robert Boyle


... his research and personal philosophy clearly has its roots in the
alchemical tradition ... He himself was an alchemist; and believing the
transmutation of metals to be a possibility, he carried out experiments in
the hope of effecting it; and he was instrumental in obtaining the repeal,
in 1689, of the statute of Henry IV against multiplying gold and silver. ...
He founded the Boyle lectures, intended to defend the Christian religion
against those he considered "notorious infidels, namely atheists, deists,
pagans, Jews and Muslims", with the provison that controversies between
Christians were not to be mentioned.


> Sir Isaac Newton


He was a natural philosopher, and alchemist. ... Newton's study of the Bible
and of the early Church Fathers were among his greatest passions. He devoted
more time to the study of the Scriptures, the Fathers, and to Alchemy than
to science. ... He also attempted, unsuccessfully, to find hidden messages
within the Bible (See Bible code). Despite his focus on theology and
alchemy, Newton tested and investigated these ideas with the scientific
method, observing, hypothesising, and testing his theories. .... Newton may
have rejected the church's doctrine of the Trinity. In a minority view, T.C.
Pfizenmaier argues that he more likely held the Eastern Orthodox view of the
Trinity rather than the Western one held by Roman Catholics, Anglicans, and
most Protestants.[11] In his own day, he was also accused of being a
Rosicrucian (as were many in the Royal Society and in the court of Charles
II).

> Blaise Pascal.


Pascal was a member of Jansenism. Jansenism was a branch of Catholic thought
that emphasized original sin, human depravity, the necessity of divine
grace, and predestination. Originating in the writings of the Dutch
theologian Cornelius Otto Jansen, Jansenism formed a distinct movement
within the Roman Catholic Church from the 16th to 18th centuries, but was
condemned by the Roman Catholic Church as heretical. .... In Paris on
August 18, 1662, Pascal went into convulsions and received extreme unction.
(Catholic rite)


> Michael Faraday

Faraday was a devout Christian and a member of the small Sandemanian
denomination, an offshoot of the Church of Scotland. He later served two
terms as an elder in the group's church.

Sandemanians beilieved:


In all the action of the church unanimity was considered to be necessary; if
any member differed in opinion from the rest, he must either surrender his
judgment to that of the church, or be shut out from its communion. To join
in prayer with any one not a member of the denomination was regarded as
unlawful, and even to eat or drink with one who had been excommunicated was
held to be wrong. .. Things strangled and blood were rigorously abstained
from; the lot was regarded as sacred; ....


> Lord Kelvin


William Thomson, 1st Baron Kelvin,
Thomson remained a devout believer in Christianity throughout his life:
attendance at chapel was part of his daily routine,[24] though he might not
identify with fundamentalism if he were alive today.[25] He saw his
Christian faith as supporting and informing his scientific work, as is
evident from his address to the annual meeting of the Christian Evidence
Society, 23 May 1889.[26]

One of the clearest instances of this interaction is in his estimate of the
age of the Earth. .... Thomson believed in an instant of Creation but he was
no creationist in the modern sense.[27] ..... Thomson ultimately settled on
an estimate that the Earth was 20-40 million years old.



> Louis Pasteur

Throughout his whole life, Louis Pasteur remained an ardent Catholic.








>>>>>Moreover, Christian were the first group in history to start an
>>>>>anti-slavery movement.
>>>> Nope.
....
>> I mentioned the followers of Spartacus, as one example. That was
>> several decades before Christ.
>
> Yes, a slave uprising, which there were many. An anti slavery movement
> didn't start until much later.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Passages from the Christian Scriptures which Sanction Slavery

Neither Jesus nor St. Paul, nor any other Biblical figure is recorded as
saying anything in opposition to the institution of slavery. Slavery was
very much a part of life in Palestine and in the rest of the Roman Empire
during New Testament times. Quoting Rabbi M.J. Raphall, circa 1861,
"Receiving slavery as one of the conditions of society, the New Testament
nowhere interferes with or contradicts the slave code of Moses; it even
preserves a letter [to Philemon] written by one of the most eminent
Christian teachers [St. Paul] to a slave owner on sending back to him his
runaway slave." 1


People in debt (and their children) were still being sold into slavery in
New Testament times:


Matthew 18:25: "But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded
him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment
to be made."


Priests still owned slaves:


Mark 14:66: "And as Peter was beneath in the palace, there cometh one
of the maids of the high priest:"


Jesus is recorded as mentioning slaves in one of his parables. It is
important to realize that the term "servant" in the King James Version of
the Bible refers to slaves, not employees like a butler, cook, or maid.
Here, a slave which did not follow his owner's will would be beaten with
many lashes of a whip. A slave who was unaware of his owner's will, but who
did not behave properly, would also be beaten, but with fewer stripes.


This would have been a marvelous opportunity for Jesus to condemn the
institution of slavery and its abuse of slaves. But he is not recorded of
having taken it:


Luke 12:45-48: "The lord [owner] of that servant will come in a day
when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will
cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself,
neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he
that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with
few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much
required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the
more."


One of the favorite passages of slave-owning Christians was St. Paul's
infamous instruction that slaves to obey their owners in the same way that
they obey Christ:


Ephesians 6:5-9: "Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters
according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your
heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the
servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will
doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good
thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be
bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing
threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there
respect of persons with him."


Other passages instructing slaves and slave owners in proper behavior are:


Colossians 4:1: "Masters, give unto your servants that which is just
and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven."


1 Timothy 6:1-3 "Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their
own masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be
not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise
them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they
are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and
exhort. If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even
the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according
to godliness;"


In his defense, St. Paul incorrectly expected that Jesus would return in the
very near future. This might have demotivated him from speaking out against
slavery or other social evils in the Roman Empire. Also he regarded slaves
as persons of worth whom at least God considers of importance. St. Paul
mentioned that both slaves and free persons are sons of God, and thus all
part of the body of Christ and spiritually equal.


1 Corinthians 12:13: "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one
body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have
been all made to drink into one Spirit."


Galatians 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond
nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ
Jesus."
Colossians 3:11: "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision
nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all,
and in all."


St. Paul apparently saw no evil in the concept of one person owning another
as a piece of property. In his Letter to Philemon, he had every opportunity
to discuss the immorality of slave-owning, but declined to do so.


Deuteronomy 23:15-16, cited above, requires a Jew to protect a runaway
slave, and to not return him/her to their owner.. However, St. Paul violated
the law. While in prison, he met a runaway slave, Onesimus, the slave of a
Christian. He was presumably owned by Pheliemon. Rather than give the slave
sanctuary, he returned him to his owner. Paul seems to hint that he would
like Pheliemon to give Onesimus his freedom, but does not actually request
it. See the Letter to Philemon in the Christian Scriptures.


From http://www.religioustolerance.org/sla_bibl2.htm


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


> I don't know Gods mind, I just know whats in the NT says.

REALLY???!!!


6 BCE
- Jesus birth

27 - 34 CE
- Jesus' death

50 - 60 CE
- 1 Thessalonians (Paul)
- Philippians (Paul)
- Galatians (Paul)
- 1 Corinthians (Paul)
- 2 Corinthians (Paul)
- Romans (Paul)
- Philemon (Paul)

50 - 80 CE
- Colossians (May not be Paul)

50 - 95 CE
- Hebrews (Not Paul)

65 - 80 CE
- Mark's gospel
- Source may be Peter
- Messianic secret
- Based on Deuteronomy / liturgy
- All actions could be done in one week

70 - 100 CE
- James

80 -100 CE
- 2 Thessalonians (May not be Paul)
- Ephesians (May not be Paul)

- Matthew's gospel
- Addressed to Diaspora
- Written in Antioch
- Conservative
- 90% of the references to Hell
- Based on Moses' life / Exodus
- Portrays division between Jews and Christians

80 -110 CE
- 1 Peter

80 CE - 130 CE
- Luke's gospel, Acts (both written in Caesarea)
- Roman recognition sought
- Gentile interested in universalism
- Focuses on spirit
- Based on II Isaiah
- Jesus portrayed as greater than Elijah

90 - 95 CE
- Revelation of John (Not the apostle John)
- Apocalyptic genre

90 -120 CE.
- I John, 2 John, 3 John, Jude

- John's Gospel
- Not the apostle
- Written in Ephesus
- Centred in Judea / Jerusalem not synoptic Gallilee
- Actions over 3-4 years instead of synoptics 1 year
- Symbolic narrative
- Focus on Wisdom and Word
- Focus on self rather than kingdom of God
- No Ascension or Pentecost

100 -150 CE
-1 Timothy (Not Paul)
- 2 Timothy (Not Paul)
- Titus (Not Paul)

100 -160 CE
- 2 Peter (Not Peter)

Refer to http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/


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