alt.education

PseuDoeCyAnts wrote:

>:|on Tue 26 Feb 2008 08:23:59a
>:| buckeye posted
>:| in news:vve8s3lm50m50jqqck9gvuta7rbac88nm8@4ax.com:
>:|
>:|> The following Christian site is offering on ebay a picture of
>:|> James Madsion, some thing showing the Great Seal along with a
>:|> signature of James Madison coupled with the infamous Ten
>:|> Commandment bogus quote attributed to Madison beginning at just
>:|> under 495.00
>:|>
>:|> http://tinyurl.com/3bhdgb
>:|>
>:|> What a rip off.
>:|>
>:|
>:|The clown's Jefferson quote is bogus too.
>:|
>:|From Monticello dot org:
>:|
>:|
>:|The one attributed to John Quincy Adams is dubious also.
>:|
>:|Maybe you can offer enlightenment on it.
>:|
>:|The revisionary merchant on Ebay lists the quote as:
>:|
>:| "So great is my veneration of the Bible,
>:| that the earlier my children begin to read it
>:| the more confident will be my hope
>:| that they will prove
>:| useful citizens of their country
>:| and respectable members of society."
>:|
>:| - - John Quincy Adams
>:|
>:|Big problem when searhing for the quote's attribution on the web
>:|though. The only place I found it footnoted and/or attributed,
>:|
>:|it was a bit longer, and was of a different parentage, literally:
>:|
>:| "Our Constitution was made only for a moral
>:| and religious people. So great is my veneration
>:| of the Bible that the earlier my children begin
>:| to read it, the more confident will be my hope
>:| that they will prove useful citizens of their
>:| country and respectful members of society."
>:|
>:| - - John Adams
>:|
>:|The footnote reads:
>:|
>:| Robert Ferrell,
>:| "The Adams Family: Four Generations of Patriots",
>:| (New York: Publius Press, 1969)
>:|
>:|If 1969 is the first noting of this quoteation,
>:|I find it hard to believe that even papa Adams said it.
>:|What I know of John Quincy Adam's authorship,
>:|makes be extremely sceptical that he wrote it.
>:|
>:|Another cause more me to think this is a dubious quotation, is
>:|that I also often find it with a triple ellipse inserted into it:
>:|
>:| “Our constitution was made only for a moral
>:| and religious people…so great is my veneration
>:| of the Bible that the earlier my children begin
>:| to read, the more confident will be my hope
>:| that they will prove useful citizens in their
>:| country and respectful members of society.”
>:|
>:| - - John Adams
>:|
>:|This Google book return shows it attributed
>:|to J.Q. Adams with a dubious sourcing:
>:|
>:|
>:|
>:|The given source being:
>:| "compiled by Grant Jeffery"
>:|
>:|That may be good enough for ditto-heads
>:|who operate under blind faith pardigms,
>:|but I ain't buying it from Grant Jeffery
>:|without a more authoritarian citation:
>:|
>:|


Dec 10 2003, 12:58 pm
Newsgroups: alt.atheism, alt.politics.usa.constitution, alt.education,
alt.religion.christian, alt.society.liberalism, misc.education,
alt.politics.usa.republican
From: buckeye-...@nospam.net
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 11:58:40 -0500
Local: Wed, Dec 10 2003 12:58 pm
Subject: Re: church/state seperation

>:|> ambrosesea...@yahoo.com (ambrose searle AKA richard gardiner) wrote:

>:|I said that Adams felt the constitution was not adequate to govern
>:|atheists.
>:|
>:|Adams said--
>:|
>:|"Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It
>:|is wholly inadequate to the government of any other"
>:|

What was the context?

I wonder why the guy didn't provide the details behind this comment,
ya know, the context? If he had provided the context, it would have
taken a lot of wind out of implications.

Would readers like to see the context? Here it is:

----- ----------- --------------
TO THE OFFICERS OF THE FIRST BRIGADE OF THE THIRD DIVISION OF THE
MILITIA OF MASSACHUSETTS. 11 October,
1798. GENTLEMEN,

I have received from Major-General Hull and Brigadier. General Walker
your unanimous address from Lexington, animated with a martial spirit,
and expressed with a military dignity becoming your character and the
memorable plains on which it was adopted.

While our country remains untainted with the principles and manners
which are now producing desolation in so many parts of the world;
while she continues sincere, and incapable of insidious and impious
policy, we shall have the strongest reason to rejoice in the local
destination assigned us by Providence. But should the people of
America once become capable of that deep simulation towards one
another, and towards foreign nations, which assumes the language of
justice and moderation while it is practising iniquity and
extravagance, and displays in the most captivating manner the charming
pictures of candor, frankness, and sincerity, while it is rioting in
rapine and insolence, this country will be the most miserable
habitation in the world; because we have no government armed with
power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality
and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break
the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net.
Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is
wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

An address from the officers commanding two thousand eight hundred
men, consisting of such substantial citizens as are able and willing
at their own expense completely to arm and clothe themselves in
handsome uniforms, does honor to that division of the militia which
has done so much honor to its country.

Oaths in this country are as yet universally considered as sacred
obligations. That which you have taken and so solemnly repeated on
that venerable spot, is an ample pledge of your sincerity and devotion
to your country and its government.
JOHN ADAMS. (SOURCE OF INFORMATION: The Works of
John Adams, Second President of the United States; With A Life of the
Author Notes and Illustrations of his Grandson Charles Francis Adams.
Vol. IX, Books For Libraries Press, Freeport, New York, (First
Published 1850-1856, Reprinted 1969) pp 228-29)
*******************************************************

NOW FOR THE CONTEXT: John Adams was being president, being all things
to all people. While in office he received correspondence (called
addresses) from a number of persons, groups, organizations, etc. He in
turn answered many of those. In the CONTENTS of the above publication
you will find the following:

In the CONTENTS of the above publication you will find the following:

ANSWERS TO ADDRESSES.

1797.
August 28. TO THE AMERICAN ACADEMY OF ARTS AND SCIENCE 180

1798.
April
TO THE MAYOR, ALDERMEN, AND CITIZENS OF THE
CITY OF PHILADELPHIA . 182
26. TO THE CITIZENS OF PHILADELPHIA, THE DISTRICT OF
SOUTHWARK, AND THE NORTHERN LIBERTIES . 183
30. TO THE INHABITANTS OF PROVIDENCE, RHODE ISLAND 184

May
1. TO THE INHABITANTS OF BRIDGETON, IN THE COUNTY
OF CUMBERLAND, IN THE STATE OF NEW JERSEY . 185
2. TO THE CITIZENS OF BALTIMORE, AND BALTIMORE
COUNTY, MARYLAND . 186
7. TO THE YOUNG MEN OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA,
THE DISTRICT OF SOUTHWARK, AND THE NORTHERN
LIBERTIES, PENNSYLVANIA . 187
7. TO THE INHABITANTS AND CITIZENS OF BOSTON, MAS-
SACHUSETTS . 189
8. TO THE INHABITANTS OF THE COUNTY OF LANCASTER?
PENNSYLVANIA .190
8. TO THE INHABITANTS OF THE COUNTY OF BURLINGTON,
NEW JERSEY . 191
10. TO THE INHABITANTS OF THE TOWN OF HARTFORD,
CONNECTICUT .192
12. TO THE INHABITANTS OF THE BOROUGH OF HARRIS-
BURGH, PENNSYLVANIA . 193
22. TO THE YOUNG MEN OF BOSTON, MASSACHUSETTS .194
28. TO THE GRAND JURY FOR THE COUNTY OF PLYMOUTH,
MASSACHUSETTS . 195
81. TO THE SOLDIER CITIZENS OF NEW JERSEY . 196

June
2. TO THE INHABITANTS OF THE TOWN OF BRAINTREE,
MASSACHUSETTS . 197
TO THE YOUNG MEN OF THE CITY OF NEW YORK . 197
TO THE INHABITANTS OF QUINCY, MASSACHUSETTS . 199
2. TO THE INHABITANTS OF THE TOWN OF CAMBRIDGE,
MASSACHUSETTS . 200
15. TO THE LEGISLATURE OF MASSACHUSETTS . 200
25. TO THE INHABITANTS OF ARLINGTON AND SANDGATE,
VERMONT . 202
29. TO THE LEGISLATURE OF NEW HAMPSHIRE . 203
TO THE STUDENTS OF DICKINSON COLLEGE, PENNSYL-
VANIA . .204
TO THE STUDENTS OF NEW JERSEY COLLEGE . 205
TO THE GOVERNOR AND THE LEGISLATURE OF CON
NECTICUT . 207
TO THE CINCINNATI OF RHODE ISLAND . . 208

July
14. TO THE INHABITANTS OF DEDHAM AND OTHER TOWNS
IN THE COUNTY OF NORFOLK, MASSACHUSETTS . 209
TO THE INHABITANTS OF CONCORD, MASSACHUSETTS . 210
TO THE STUDENTS OF HARVARD UNIVERSITY, IN MAS-
SACHUSETTS . 211
TO THE FREEMASONS OF THE STATE OF MARYLAND . 212
TO THE INHABITANTS OF WASHINGTON COUNTY, MARY-
LAND . 219
TO THE INHABITANTS OF THE COUNTY OF MIDDLESEX,
VIRGINIA . 214
TO THE COMMITTEE OF THE MILITIA OF BOTETOURT,
VIRGINIA . 215

August
11. TO THE INHABITANTS OF CINCINNATI AND ITS VICINITY 215
13. TO THE INHABITANTS OF HARRISON COUNTY, VIRGINIA 216
TO THE YOUNG MEN OF RICHMOND, VIRGINIA . .217
TO THE INHABITANTS OF ACCOMAC COUNTY, VIRGINIA 218
31. TO THE SENATE AND ASSEMBLY OF THE STATIC OF NEW
YORK . 219

September
7. TO THE BOSTON MARINE SOCIETY, MASSACHUSETTS . 220
15. TO THE CINCINNATI OF SOUTH CAROLINA . 222
22. TO THE GRAND JURY OF DUTCHESS COUNTY, NEW
YORK . 223
26. TO THE GRAND JURY OF ULSTER COUNTY, NEW YORK 224
TO THE INHABITANTS OF THE TOWN OF NEWBERN,
NORTH CAROLINA . 225
26. TO THE SIXTH BRIGADE OF THE THIRD DIVISION OF
NORTH CAROLINA MILITIA . 226

October
3. TO THE GRAND JURORS OF HAMPSHIRE COUNTY, MAS-
SACHUSETTS . 227
5. TO THE INHABITANTS OF MACHIAS, DISTRICT OF MAINE 227
11. TO THE OFFICERS OF THE FIRST BRIGADE, THIRD DIVI-
SION OF MASSACHUSETTS MILITIA . 228

October
19. TO THE MILITIA AND INHABITANTS OF GUILFORD
COUNTY, NORTH CAROLINA . 229
31. TO THE OFFICERS OF THE THIRD DIVISION OF GEORGIA
MILITIA . , 230

1799.
April
3. TO THE GRAND JURY OF MORRIS COUNTY IN NEW
JERSEY . 231
8. TO THE CITIZENS, INHABITANTS OF THE MISSISSIPPI
TERRITORY . 232

1800.
June
5. TO THE INHABITANTS OF THE CITY OF WASHINGTON . 233
11. TO THE CITIZENS OF ALEXANDRIA . 233

July
1. TO THE CORPORATION OF NEW LONDON, CONNECTICUT 23-1

August
15. TO THE INHABITANTS OF THE COUNTY OF EDGECOMBE,
NORTH CAROLINA .235

1801.
March
26. TO THE SENATE AND HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES OF
MASSACHUSETTS . 236
**************************************************************************
As can be seen above, Adams answered a number of these addresses while
in office. This particular set of books does not contain the actual
address from each group that he answered. So, we have no way of
knowing exactly what Adams was responding to. What they had written to
him that brought him to write what he wrote in that one particular
answer of October 11, 1798. That type of language does not occur in
any of the other answers.

Obviously he was replying to something they had said or had asked him.
He would know that while his answer was addressed to a specific
group, the odds were going to be great it would be published in local
newspapers or at least shared with members of the general public as well.

In March 1798 he had issued a Proclamation for a National Fast to be
observed on May 9, 1798. (He would issue another such proclamation in
1799 and would late rue the day he did either. He spent the rest of
his life feeling that at least in part those proclamations cost him
re-election ) There is a chance they had asked or made mention of
that fact in what they wrote him.

Since it was for public consumption it does not necessarily serve as a
accurate barometer of what John Adams personally believed with regards
to religion or church/state.
=========================================================

***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:

The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm

American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm

The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html

[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]

HRSepCnS · Historical Reality SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/

***************************************************************
. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote

"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"

That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.

It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.

*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************