alt.education

"Jd" skrev i en meddelelse
news:elr6t3hb1ene2b1um0trb23uhu9j6erq50@4ax.com...
> thomas p. wrote:
>
>>
>>"Jd" skrev i en meddelelse
>>news:hhd4t3l0pvnsakbe6r44qg8kvumocqhph6@4ax.com...
>>> Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Thu, 06 Mar 2008 23:45:31 +0000 in
>>>>m271t3pii2a4rhe8drkpf09kkne0olfpv7@4ax.com, Jd
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Thu, 06 Mar 2008 00:09:58 +0000 in
>>>>>>g8kus3d1f4ij0nehbci4vvppisea3qhanf@4ax.com, Jd
>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> thomas p. wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So, once again, no matter what some of the founders thought or
>>>>>>>> said,
>>>>>>>> the country was established on firmly
>>>>>>>>secular grounds.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That doesn't make any sense. The founding fathers founded the
>>>>>>> country
>>>>>>> so it does indeed matter what they said and thought.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Dimwit, what they *wrote* is what governs us now. Not what they
>>>>>>happened
>>>>>>to "think" about something. While what they "thought" may give insight
>>>>>>into what they wrote, the words of the Constitution are what govern
>>>>>>this
>>>>>>nation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>And the Constitution is secular. Whatever they "thought" about gods,
>>>>>>they *wrote* a secular document.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Declaration of Independence is not a secular document.
>>>>>
>>>>> George Washington's first inaugural address is not a secular document.
>>>>
>>>>Neither of which are the governing law of the United States.
>>>
>>
>>> God rules the world.
>>
>>That is your opinion. The objective fact is that the US was established
>>as
>>a secular nation.
>
> Not true. My view is objective and I've shown documentation in support of
> my views whereas your
> views are subjective seeing that you've offerend no documentation
> whatsoever in support. Therefore
> your views are nothing more than gossip, hearsay and/or deceptive lies.

You have quoted the private remarks of people. You have not once provided
any evidence that the US was founded as a Christian nation.


>
> The only good thing about this whole discussion is the entertainment value
> found in reading such
> ridiculous, unsupported opinions as you guys offer.

You are the one who quotes the Bible or remarks made in speeches or letters
to support your opinions.


>
>> That does not mean anti-god or anti any religion. It
>>merely means that the US government is secular. No law refers to a
>>religious belief for its justification. No law recognizes the authority
>>of
>>any religion or any religious belief; such matters are the private concern
>>of individual citizens.
>

> Your statements above indicate that your opinion of "law" is based upon
> fundamental error wrt the US
> Constitution. Simply put, you cannot by any means establish the concept of
> "equal protection" (under
> the law) having negated the existence of a "Creator" which created all men
> equal.

That is your opinion. The fact is the Constitution does include the legal
requirement that all men be treated equally before the law, but it says
nothing about any god. Even if your religious beliefs were true, the US was
still not founded as a Christian nation; since the founding document says
nothing about it. The private opinions expressed by the nation's leaders at
that time concerning the importance of religion or Christianity are not
included in that document, i.e. the Constitution. In fact the Constitution
specifically says that the "Congress shall make no law respecting the
establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;..." In
other words the governement does not recognize any particular religion or
religion at all; on the contrary, it is forbidden to do so; and that makes
the government a secular government based not on any religious belief but on
the soverignty of the people no matter what any individual belief they might
have.


>
> Nevertheless I do not automatically hold your ignorance against you.

Incredible irony.


>
>>> Psalms 24:1 "The earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof; the
>>> world,
>>> and they that dwell
>>> therein."
>>>
>>> Romans 13:1 "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there
>>> is no power but of God: the
>>> powers that be are ordained of God."
>>
>>
>>If you believe in the Christian god, the above naturally has importance
>>for
>>you. The laws of the US are not based on that belief, and many of your
>>citizens do not believe. Therefore you have the freedom to believe what
>>you
>>want, as do others, that is the positive result of a secular state.
>

> The laws of the United States of America were initiated by men who
> believed in the God of Israel, as
> I've documented.
>
> You have shown no documentation of anything.

The laws of the United States forbids the government from recognizing or
establishing religion. I and others have documented that fact, and you
(with your head in the sand) ignore it. It won't go away however.



>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> There are hundereds if not thousands of Governmental documents that
>>>>> are
>>>>> not secular.
>>
>>Cite one. Hint: Political speeches are not government documents.
>
> Your ignorance is not overwhelming. Hint: the USA has what is called the
> "National Archives"
> which documents things like what I've been saying. Unfortunately you
> beleive me not.
>

Gosh, wasn't that a clever bit of prevarication. The discussion was about
laws including the Constitution not an historical archive.


> "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.
> He was a murderer from
> the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in
> him. When he speaketh a lie,
> he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And
> because I tell you the truth, ye
> believe me not." - Jesus (John 8:44-45)
>
>>>>Because politicians *never* pander.
>>>>
>>>>> But you simply cannot deny that America was indeed founded by "faith"
>>>>> in
>>>>> God and that the founders statements which are a matter of public
>>>>> record, prove that beyond any doubt.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>There is not a single aspect of our Constitution that can be found in
>>>>Judeo-Christianity. You people keep spewing this crap about "faith" and
>>>>"god" and all but you cannot show how the Constitution can be derived
>>>>from the bible or any such thing.
>>>>
>>>>You are, simply put, full of shit. The actual record of the writing of
>>>>the Constitution shows its origins to clearly be British common law,
>>>>Greco-Roman law, and some strong Native American influence (particularly
>>>>the Iroquois). Nobody cited the babble and used that to craft any part
>>>>of
>>>>our Constitution.
>>>
>>
>>> Says who? You? You'd be better off in the long run if you would steer
>>> clear of gossipy
>>> women and jester fags.
>>
>>It would be nice if you could discuss the actual issue without junior high
>>insults. In any event it is not a personal opinion that the Constitution
>>is
>>based on British common law among other things, the writings of John Locke
>>and the philosophes of the Enlightenment for example; that is a rather
>>basic
>>fact of American history learned or at least taught in high school. I
>>would
>>appreciate an answer that had relevance to the above instead of a personal
>>insult. For example you could provide one quote from the Constitution
>>that
>>mentions any religious basis for the government, any preference for
>>Christianity, or any god at all.
>

> Again, your ignorance of historical facts are not overwhelming. Your
> opinions are obviously based on
> gossip and rumours probably from some ACLU like website.
>
> Are you gay?

Now you haved managed to combine silliness and nastiness. Have you no shame
at all? Never mind, obviously you do not.

snip of the same nonsense. You have become unbearably tedious.