alt.education

"And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto
Aaron. And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made
it a molten calf: and they said, 'These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land
of Egypt.' And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and
said, 'Tomorrow is a feast to the Lord'." (Exodus 32:3-5)

"And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and
the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play." (Exodus 32:6)

"Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, 'The people sat down to eat and
drink, and rose up to play'." (1Corinthians 10:7)

Idolaters play indeed.

thomas p. wrote:

>
>"Jd" skrev i en meddelelse
>news:tt41t31tknjmda9d8t438h4a8nrmplprqq@4ax.com...
>> thomas p. wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Jd" skrev i en meddelelse
>>>news:g8kus3d1f4ij0nehbci4vvppisea3qhanf@4ax.com...
>>>> thomas p. wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> So, once again, no matter what some of the founders thought or said,
>>>>> the
>>>>> country was established on firmly
>>>>>secular grounds.
>>>>
>>>
>>>> That doesn't make any sense. The founding fathers founded the country
>>>> so
>>>> it does indeed matter what
>>>> they said and thought. Undoubtedly, they thought God had a hand in
>>>> founding the Nation since
>>>> afterall, that is what they said.
>>>
>>>
>>>What they actually wrote down and that became accepted as the founding
>>>document for the US is what matters. Some of the founders you talk about
>>>were deists, not Christians. Some rejected the divinity of Jesus (all the
>>>deists and some of the others). Some were Christians. The document
>>>itself
>>>reflected the thoughts of men such as Montesquieu, Dederot, Voltaire,
>>>Rousseau, none of these were Christians; and no part of the document is
>>>Christian; it is purely secular.
>>
>> What document are you referring to? There are a plethora of documents
>> which do indeed mention God.
>>
>> If you are referring to the US Constitution, vitually all 55 of the
>> authors/signers were Christians
>> of one denomination or another....
>
>And absolutely no part of the document is Christian. It reflects the
>thinking of the 18'th century Enlightenment. I and others have pointed this
>out repeatedly, and you repeatedly ignore it. Whether or not all the
>signers were Christians is irrelevant, and all of them were not. It is not
>a Christian document anymore than a contract between two businessmen is a
>Christian document, even if both of them are Christian.

It matters not what you say or think. The founding fathers stated that America was founded on
Christian principles. This is a matter of historical fact. To deny it is to admit ignorance wrt
historical facts.

“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of
Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of
Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.” - John Adams

"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God,
never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." - Alexander
Hamilton

"It is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to
be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favors." - George Washington

Delving into the matter a bit deeper we see that the American form of government is similar to the
pattern found in Torah Judaism....

"The Jews have done more to civilize men than any other nation.... They are the most glorious Nation
that ever inhabited the earth. The Romans and their Empire were but a bauble in comparison to the
Jews. They have given religion to three-quarters of the Globe and have influenced the affairs of
Mankind more, and more happily than any other Nation, ancient or modern." - John Adams (the second
president of the United States)

15,000 official documents were studied and the conclusion was that the Jewish Torah played a major
role in the thinking of the founding fathers.

"At the time of the drafting of the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution, political
discourse was permeated with biblical references. Dr. Donald S. Lutz, a professor of political
philosophy at the University of Houston, conducted a massive groundbreaking study in which he
examined some 15,000 documents written during America’s founding era. He and his research associate,
Dr. Charles Hyneman, found that a third of the quotations in these documents were from the Bible."

“Deuteronomy is cited more than John Locke or anyone else,”

"According to Lutz, the U.S. Constitution is a political document that is the product of a
constitution-making tradition that can be traced to colonial charters and which is modeled on the
biblical covenant—a solemn agreement between God and man."

The colonists “didn’t come over with John Locke in hand,” said Lutz. “They came over with the Bible
in hand.” While many of their technologies were ill-suited to the New World, the idea of
constitution-making insured their success. “It was the perfect technology,” said Lutz. “It was the
technology that mattered and allowed them to survive all up and down the coast.”

http://www.crm.tv/onenationundergod/constitution.htm

Torah Judaism and the American form of government....


*****Triune Government*****
(Executive, Legislative & Judicial)

-----The House of Representatives-----
"The House of Representatives represents 435 districts of the United States, where the people of
each district elect one person to represent their views and interests. The idea of district
elections is implicit in the Torah. “Select for yourselves men who are wise, understanding, and
known to your tribes and I will appoint them as your leaders” (Deut. 1:13). The word “election”
obviously comes from the word “elect,” and the “elect” means men of high intellectual and moral
character."
-----The Senate-----
"The Senate represents the 50 states of the Federal Union; it therefore represents the Federal
principle. But the idea of federalism goes back to the Torah and the twelve tribes. Each tribe had
its own distinct identity, its own governor and its own judicial system."

-----The Presidency-----
"Unlike Israel, which has a Plural Executive or Cabinet consisting of a prime minister and other
ministers representing different political parties in the Knesset, the United States has a Unitary
Executive, namely, the President. Of course the President has a Cabinet, but its members cannot hold
any other office and they are wholly responsible to the President, not to any political party."

a. Now it so happens that a Unitary Executive is a Torah principle! Thus, when Moses told Joshua
to consult the elders when he was about to lead the Jews across the Jordan, God countermanded
Moses: there can only be one leader in a generation.

And if you look at tractate Sanhedrin 8a, you will see that Jewish law opposes collective
leadership. Nor is this all.

b. Just as a President of the United States must be a native-born American and not a naturalized
citizen, so a king of Israel must be born of a Jewish mother and not a ger or convert.

-----The Supreme Court-----
Just as the American Supreme Court is the final interpreter of the American Constitution, so the
Great Sanhedrin is the final interpreter of the Jewish Constitution, the Torah.

So we see that the original American Constitution was very much rooted in Torah Judaism."

http://thestateofamerica.wordpress.com/2008/01/29/jewish-roots-of-the-american-constitution/


>> "Virtually every one of the 55 writers and signers of the United States
>> Constitution were members
>> of various Christian denominations: 29 were Anglicans, 16 to 18 were
>> Calvinists, 2 were Methodists,
>> 2 were Lutherans, 2 were Roman Catholic, 1 lapsed Quaker and sometimes
>> Anglican, and 1 open
>> deist--Dr. Franklin who attended every kind of Christian worship, called
>> for public prayer, and
>> contributed to all denominations."
>>
>> http://www.shalomjerusalem.com/heritage/heritage17.html
>>
>> Answer me this.... how does a secular citizen having no faith in the
>> existence of God qualify
>> himself to be an expert on whether or not the authors of the Constitution
>> were Christian or not?
>
>Answer me this: Why do you keep talking about something that is not
>relevant? What part of the Constitution is Christian?

The reprobate mind is in the final analysis.... clueless.

"And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate
mind, to do those things which are not convenient" - (Romans 1:28)

REPROBATE (gk. 'adokimos') - Strongs# 96: "unapproved", "worthless", "castaway", "rejected" (Strongs
Greek dictionary of the New Testment)

>> I think most of you guys just read FAQ's from atheistic websites and
>> swallow the info hook, line and
>> sinker without even investigating the other POV.
>>
>> My personl opinion is that most of these wannabe atheists are actually
>> x-Christians or x-Jews who
>> have a bone to pick with anyone who is still loyal to the faith.
>
>I don't care what your personal opinion is.

Fine. Suit yourself. But as long as you insist on relying on gossip and hearsay in the formulation
of your opinions, your views can only be described as being unsupported, subjective opinion at best.

>> Did you know that Charles Darwin himself was an x-Christian? Check this
>> out from his auto-bio.
>
>Of course I know that. It is common knowledge.
>
>
>>
>> "During these two years I was led to think much about religion. Whilst on
>> board the Beagle I was
>> quite orthodox, and I remember being heartily laughed at by several of the
>> officers (though
>> themselves orthodox) for quoting the Bible as an unanswerable authority on
>> some point of
>> morality...."
>>
>> "....by such reflections as these, which I give not as having the least
>> noveltry or value, but as
>> they influenced me, I gradually came to disbelieve in Christianity as a
>> divine revelation." -
>> Charles Darwin (The Autobiography of Charles Darwin)
>>
>> The founders heavily relied on God.
>>
>> " God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the
>> ground without his notice,
>> is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been
>> assured in the Sacred Writings
>> that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I
>> firmly believe this. I
>> also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this
>> political building no better
>> than the builders of Babel" Benjamin Franklin - Constitutional Convention
>> of 1787
>>
>> So if anything you might better be able to accept that this nation was
>> founded on "faith" instead of
>> trying to comprehend the things the Christian founders said and thought.
>
>In other words you are going to continue to ignore what the Constitution
>actually says. No surprise there.

Again, your unsupported opinion is based on gossip and hearsay until that point
in time when you provide evidence otherwise. Until then what you say and what you think is
irrelevant, unsubstantiated jibberish, and wishful thinking (as it is with every self-centered
un-repentant narcissistic egomaniac).

>> Fair enough? When you get in your car to go somewhere you accept by
>> "faith" that you are going to
>> arrive at your destination. Right?
>
>Obviously wrong. I know by experience that cars, if properly maintained,
>are reliable transportation. Faith is not involved, and your question has
>nothing to do with the discussion.

Right. So in other words you have no intention atall of showing any tendency whatsoever wrt
dislaying any form of civil discourse. Fine. I hereby decline to grant you any civil rights
whatsoever.

>>>> Problem is, you can't negate what they said or thought simply because
>>>> you
>>>> don't believe in God.
>
>Problem is I have never tried to, but you would rather argue with a
>strawman.

I don't argue.

>>>I have not attempted to negate what they said, nor have I based what I
>>>have
>>>said on the existence or non-existence of a god.
>>
>
>> Fine. At least your honest and able to keep your cool without going off on
>> a rant like most of the
>> others here.
>
>I and others have been able to present our point of view without lying about
>yours...

True. You can't lie about historical facts (which is what I've repeatedly shown).

>> >> You cannot deny facts. The best you can do is say that the nation was
>> >> founded
>> >> on a faulty premise which
>> >> in turn undermines the legitimacy of the nation from it's incepetion.
>> >> Under those conditions the
>> >> rights you claim as yours may very well be found as being illegitimate
>> >> (since the basic premise is
>> >> that rights come from God, not man).
>> >
>> >That rights come from god is your claim. Since you have no evidence for
>> >any
>> >god, and since the Constitution does not base any right on any god, you
>> >are
>> >wrong.
>>
>
>> We would not have the Constitution if it were not for the Declaration of
>> Independence (which does
>> claim that rights come from God).
>
>The phrase used is "nature's God". That is the god of Deism. In any event
>the Constitution is the basic law of the US not the Declaration and not the
>Bible.

Atheist: "One who disbelieves in the existence of a God" - (Webster's Dictionary)

So explain to me how you understand that in which you do not believe and expect anyone else to trust
your opinion which is based on something you reject and do not understand.

Again, your notions which are based on gossip and hearsay are irrelevant. You have provided no
source for your assertions but have rather relied on mere babble which in the final analysis, would
insult the intelligence of any reasonable scholar and thereby bore them to death.

I can assure you that I myself have become quite bored by these barbaric tactics of yours, but for
the sake of your learning I've forced myself to hang in here as long as possible.

>> Google "revolutionary war" if interested. But in short, they were under
>> British rules (not the
>> Constitution).
>
>
>Oh gosh! Do you mean to say that, before the revolution, the US didn't
>exist. What a surprise! That changes everything.

No. I mean to say that "history" goes back further than the 30 minutes you've relegated.

>>>> So..... who or where do you think your rights come from?
>>>
>>>The legal rights of Americans are described in the founding document (with
>>>its amendments) the US Constitution. That document does not once refer to
>>>any god. It refers to "We the people...". Freedom of religion, of the
>>>press etc. are certainly not rights derived from Christianity; it is
>>>dishonest and, not least of all, grotesquely comic to make such a claim.
>>
>
>> Well, some Americans are sinners. Some are saints. In both cases the Bible
>> trumps the US
>> Constitution.
>
>That is your opinion. It is not the law of the United States. A law in the
>US is not judged according to what the Bible says but according to what the
>Constitution says, and the Constitution does not mention any kind of god at
>all

It's Bible time I see. You have no idea that the death penalty is a tennet of Torah Judaism...

"Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man."
(Genesis 9:6)

Let me back up here. Have you ever heard of "Judaism"?

Let me jump forward here. Did you know that Torah Law was found to be inadequate?

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in
the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the
law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4)

Let me conclude here. God decided that He would have a "chosen" people (race, nation, ethnos) for
Himself. As it was written in the Torah.....

"Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar
treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of
priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of
Israel." (Exodus 19:5-6)

...and re-itererated in the Christian scriptures:

"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye
should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light"
(1 Peter 2:9)

Which is something I'm sure the founding fathers had in mind as they risked their very lives and
fortunes in the founding of America....

"And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the Protection of Divine
Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor." -
(Declaration of Independence)

Jd

"Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, 'The people sat down to eat and
drink, and rose up to play'." (1Corinthians 10:7)