alt.education

On Fri, 04 Apr 2008 20:20:53 GMT, "Jeff Strickland"
wrote:

>
>"4012 Dead" wrote in message
>news:bgqcv3dc1r9jqg6s6sqji0b3f7r30us7fo@4ax.com...
>>
>> Here's a little quiz for you: how many of the commandments are encoded
>> in US law, or would even be found constitutional if they were?
>
>
>Nobody is asking for them to be codefied. They are in law though, such as
>the laws against murder, lying, cheating, adultry, to name a few.

Well, you named about three too many. Lying isn't against the law
unless it is done under oath. If by "cheating" you mean fraud, that
IS against the law, but that's hardly unique to any religion. Adultry
is not against the law.
>
>We have lots of laws that codefy some of the tenents in the 10 Commandments.

Really? Three of the four examples you posted aren't laws.


>Surely you do not suggest we wipe the books clean of laws having to do with
>murder or bank robbery because these topics are included in the 10
>Commandments.

The Ten Commandments mentions bank robbery? Really?

I doubt there's a society on earth that doesn't have laws about
murder, although the definition varies. Which is ok: the ten
commandments tends to be open to interpretation on that score, doesn't
it?

In point of fact, there were laws against murder before the bible was
written, and in many cultures that never heard of the bible. Same
with stealing. There is no religious basis for either.

Here's something I wrote a few years back that covers some of the rest
of it:

The bible I have on hand is The New English Bible, the one used by
Anglicans. Groups that consider that to be evil, profane and
blasphemous are invited to put up their own editions up on their own
sites and explain why their versions won't work, either.

1. You shall have no other god to set against me. (In other
versions, this appears as "Thou shalt have no other gods before me").
So right away, kids who happen to be Muslim, Buddhist, Wiccan, Hindu
or atheist (about 2.5 million children) are being told by school
authorities that their home religious beliefs are wrong, wrong, wrong,
and eeevil. Great way to start the school week, you gotta admit. For
those fundamentalists out there wearing the blank looks, try turning
it around. Imagine if your local school put up a big sign that read,
"Want to be normal and decent, kid? Then stop believing all that
cosmic sky muffin rubbish your church keeps stuffing down your
throat!". I bet that would cause a bit of a stir at the next church
meeting.
2. You shall not make a carved image for yourself, nor in the
likeness of anything in the heavens above, or on the earth below, or
in the waters under the earth. ("Thou shalt make no graven image".)
Most people have never thought this one through, but in order to be
consistent, the schools will have to shut down art and photography
classes. People in art and photography are making "graven images".
Most people think this simply means you shouldn't make any idols, but
that's not what it says. It says, "in the likeness of anything". The
school will have to get rid of books with pictures in them, and in the
case of many schools, the mascot. It's hard to see how this will
augment scholastic achievement, let alone morality, but hey! It's the
holy word, and all that. Better tell the more religious kids who are
wearing crosses to get rid of them. "Graven images", don't you know?
(Part 2b). You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the
Lord your God, am a jealous god. I punish the children for the sins of
the fathers to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me.
But I keep faith with thousands, with those who love me and keep my
commandments. Girls, tear down those Leonard Di Caprio posters. Guy,
that Michael Jorden poster is outta here. Not only do they mean you
hate God, but your great great grandchilden will be punished for it.
3. You shall not make wrong use of the name of the Lord your God;
the Lord will not leave unpunished the man who misuses his name.
("Thou shalt not take the name in vain" and other variants.)
Indisputably, this one has enriched our language. Phrases like "good
grief", "blimey", "jumpin' Jehosephat" and "zounds" all come from
people making end-runs around this assurance that misusing the name
will get you busted for an eternity. Of course, high schoolers will be
particularly impressed with this admonition to curb their tongues, and
will be extremely inventive in their compliance. We might get a whole
new host of interesting, albeit obscure phrases, which are bound to be
more poetic than the succinct, but prosaic "you suck, dood!". Well,
OK. Maybe we can keep that one, just because it encourages kids to
develop their language skills. But how do you pronounce a song title
like "G-d damn the Pusher Man", anyway?
4. Remember to keep the sabbath day holy. There is, later on in the
bible, a big long list of things that violate the sabbath, such as
heating your house, but in the interest of concision (after all, these
were going on STONE TABLETS, which that old fart Moses had to port
down a mountain afterward), this commandment settles for saying that
it applies to you, your son or daughter, your slave or slave girl, and
your cattle or the aliens within your gates. Disregarding for the
moment the indecision over what the sabbath actually is (generally it
gets placed anywhere between sundown on Friday-which can get confusing
at certain times of the year in northern Canada, Alaska, Russia or the
Scandianian countries-and 12:01 am on Monday), eventually some smart
ass kid is going to note that the NFL teams PAY those players to punt
one another on Sundays, and therefore are working on the sabbath, and
they'll have to ban weekend football. Whereupon American civilization
will really collapse, except in Texas, where it already collapsed. We
used to have what were called "blue laws", which forbade business of
various kinds on the sabbath. We got rid of them because they were
stupid and unfair. But now we want to teach the kids that we were
wrong to get rid of them.
5. Honor your father and your mother, that you may live long in the
land which the Lord your God is giving you (in forty years, give or
take). That one, right there, should eliminate about half the
conversations going on in any given high school in any given day. (Be
honest-you used to whine about your parents when you were in high
school, too. Admit it!) Of course, school authorities telling
valley-girl wannabees that they should honor their mothers and fathers
might just answer that age-old question: Just how far can teenagers
roll those eyes, anyway? You'll just have to trust me on this: no
matter how many threats are made, and promises of a shortened life
notwithstanding, this one just isn't going to impress the kids very
much.
6. You shall not commit murder. Whew! Well, this one seems safe
enough, doesn't it? "Don't kill anyone". In some cultures, that might
seem like a rather low expectation to inflict on the kids, but this is
Charlton Heston's NRA America. Of course, the definition of "murder"
is subjective; in a well-known example, Quakers and Jehovah's
Witnesses consider ANY taking of human life to be murder. Abortion
opens the issue of what a human life is. And in most bibles, it says,
"thou shalt not kill", which some take to include "justified"
homicides such as occur in war, or American prisons. But for now, the
10c crowd are perfectly willing to have the message of the day be,
"Show you're good Christians, kids. Don't kill anyone today, OK?"
7. You shall not commit adultery. Since few high-school students
are married, this is expected to have little effect on dating
patterns. As for the broader definition that adultery means "screwing
around with anyone other than your wife", kids for years have gotten
around that by very narrowly defining sex. "Third base", also known as
"The Stinky Pinkie" isn't sex, and therefore not adultery. The only
people who didn't understand the distinctions Clinton made in regards
to Lewinsky were the ones who didn't get any in high school.
8. You shall not steal. This one is pretty hard to take any issue
with. Clear, concise, unambiguous, and in mesh with nearly all
religious and ethical philosophies. In fact, there's only one real
problem. America isn't a religious and ethical philosophy. It's a
capitalist system. This commandment does not properly prepare our
children to go out and thrive in our business community, does it?
9. You shall not give false evidence against your neighbor. This
should eliminate the other half of the conversations in high school.
My, but those kids are so quiet! Of course, kids whose parents are
inveterate Clinton-haters and who consider him responsible for murders
in Arkansas and Vince Foster and so on are going to be in a bit of a
jam: How do they get their parents to listen to them about this one
without violating commandment #5? This, at least, should get Rush
Limbaugh knocked off the air. The 10 Commandments make the First
Amendment moot, any way.
10. You shall not covet your neighbour's house; you shall not covet
your neighbour's wife, his slave, his slave-girl, his ox, his ass, or
anything that belongs to him. (Notice the air of authenticity gained
from the British spellings, just like the ones they used in Sinai back
then!) Madison Avenue and retailers discovered, to their delight, that
no segment is more avidly or vapidly acquisitive than high school
kids, or are as willing to spend more than they can afford on such.
Thanks in large measure to the determined efforts of clothing and
sports equipment manufacturers and their advertising flacks, high
school culture is a roiling mass of envy, greed and acquisitiveness,
steeped in oneupmanship and class distinctions. Given the amounts of
money involved, it's no wonder Wall Street Republicans are starting to
back away more from the religious crowd. It's a long-held American
custom to drop piety like a hot potato when it becomes bad for
business. Kids will also be unenthused when they discover that wanting
new Nikes violates this commandment.

10 Commandments =! American Law

Another argument the Religious Right likes to use for plastering the
10 Commandments up before the numb faces of our poor kids is that
American law depends from the commandments. This is purest codswallop.
("Codswallop" is another neat evasion of commandment #4). Let's look
over the 10, somewhat more briefly, and see what corollaries appear in
American Law.

1 though 4 are right out, dealing as they do with behavior toward a
specific deity. American law doesn't recognize any specific deity.

5- The sabbath. Courts have noted that schools and businesses have the
right to close on any day they choose, but that others don't have the
right to make that choice for them. Which is why the NFL plays on
Sunday, and why TV stations and supermarkets can stay open these days.

6- Honoring the old folks. A great idea, but not one easily enforced.
The law can stop you from cheating, beating, or otherwise abusing your
parents, but it can't make you honor them. Given what utter turds some
parents can be, there's situations where maybe it doesn't even qualify
as a good idea.

7-Murder. American law recognizes the Biblical stance against murder.
Of course, every other religion and philosophy in the world believes
that murder is wrong, so this is hardly unique to Christianity, is it?

8-Stealing. Ibid.

9-False witness. It's illegal to give false testimony against another
person in court, and libel/slander laws cover willful and malicious
false representations of people. But technically, saying "All lawyers
are thieves" is false witness, since there ARE honest lawyers who
don't steal. But it is something covered by the First Amendment, and
to tell the truth, I would sooner live in a culture where casual but
harmless calumnies are tolerated than one where you can be punished
for running your mouth.

10-Coveting. Can you imagine a law in America demanding that people
stop wanting more than they have? Can you, for even an instant? I
can't. Such a commandment isn't just unenforceable, it's flat out
UNAMERICAN.
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