alt.education

Darrell Stec wrote:

Antonin Scalia v. Thomas Jefferson
Message #12373 of 12375
Re: Antonin Scalia v. Thomas Jefferson

--- In HRSepCnS@yahoogroups.com, "buckeyeelo" wrote:
>
> From: Darrell
> Subject: Re: Antonin Scalia v. Thomas Jefferson
> Newsgroups:

Darell says: The text specifically says that Moses was
called up to the mountain a second time for a remake of the originally
broken stones. The words are as plain as day in either English or Hebrew.

And also: For you to be correct there
could only be ten words in any of the version.

And also: The other two sets are not called the ten commandments.
Nowhere in scripture are those ten things about lying and
murder called the ten commandments. The only ones that specifically
say they were the commandments of the original tablets and which are
assumed by Jew and Christian alike to have been the broken ten
commandments are the ones in Exodus 34.

And who the hell is Jim McMeans and why have you screwed around with
the sequence of the attributes and nesting of this thread?

Jim Replies:
The purpose of this post is to share some background information on
the origin of what Christians call the Ten Commandments and what Jews
call the "Ten Words, Things or Statements".

Jim says: The concept of a set of Ten Commandments is a Christian
concept and not a Jewish one. Jews do not refer to what most people
call the Mosiac Decalogue or Charlton Heston's Commandments as the Ten
Commandments but as the Ten Words, Ten Things or Ten Statements. The
phrase Ten Commandments is not used anywhere in the Torah. Where the
words Ten Commandments appear in a Christian Bible it is a
mistranslation.

From the Judaism 101 web site" http://www.jewfaq.org/10.htm
"But what about the so-called "Ten Commandments," the words recorded in
Exodus 20, the words that the Creator Himself wrote on the two stone
tablets that Moses brought down from Mount Sinai (Ex. 31:18), which
Moses smashed upon seeing the idolatry of the golden calf (Ex. 32:19)?
In the Torah, these words are never referred to as the Ten
Commandments. In the Torah, they are called Aseret ha-D'varim (Ex.
34:28, Deut. 4:13 and Deut. 10:4). In rabbinical texts, they are
referred to as Aseret ha-Dibrot. The words d'varim and dibrot come
from the Hebrew root Dalet-Beit-Reish, meaning word, speak or thing;
thus, the phrase is accurately translated as the Ten Sayings, the Ten
Statements, the Ten Declarations, the Ten Words or even the Ten
Things, but not as the Ten Commandments, which would be Aseret
ha-Mitzvot."


Jim says: Because the English word "Commandments" is not a good
translation of the Hebrew word
the text creates misunderstandings as to the number of items in the
list and what their exact nature is. The article from Judaism 101 also
explains that what Christians call the 10 Commandments are not any
more important than the rest of God's commandments as given in the Torah.

Jim says: In the Complete Jewish Bible, CJB, (David Stern, Jewish New
Testament Publications, Clarksville, Maryland. 1998) when the "Ten
Words, Things or Statements" or Ten Commandments, are first listed in
Chapter 20, each is accompanied by a "bullet point" so to speak of
one of the first ten letters from the Hebrew alphabet.
This probably is what was done in most Torahs.

Since the letters of the Hebrew alphabet have names which are words,
this might well be the origin of the use of the phrase, Ten Words. If
someone were violating the Sabbath for example, a person could say,
"Hey, you're violating "daleth," you know, the Fourth Thing, cut it out."

(daleth is the Hebrew letter D associated with the fourth item on the
list) "

Jim says: According to Judaism 101, the Ten Words, Things or
Statements are better understood as the Ten Categories.

More info from http://www.jewfaq.org/10.htm
"The Aseret ha-Dibrot (Ten Things or Words or Ten Commandments] are
not understood as individual mitzvot; rather, they are categories or
classifications of mitzvot. Each of the 613
mitzvot can be subsumed under one of these ten categories, some in
more obvious ways than others. For example, the mitzvah not to work on
Shabbat rather obviously falls within the category of remembering the
Sabbath day and keeping it holy. The mitzvah to fast on Yom Kippur
fits into that category somewhat less obviously: all holidays are in
some sense a Sabbath, and the category encompasses any mitzvah related
to sacred time. The mitzvah not to stand aside while a person's life
is in danger fits somewhat obviously into the category against murder.
It is not particularly obvious, however, that the mitzvah not to
embarrass a person fits within the category against murder: it causes
the blood to drain from your face thereby shedding blood.
List of the Aseret ha-Dibrot."

Jim says: It is clear from Judaism 101 that Jews consider what
Christians call the Charlton Heston Ten Commandments to be the words
that were written on the First Set of Stones Which Moses Broke. There
is no misunderstanding within the Jewish community of which I am aware
as to what Things, Words or Commandments are the original ten and thus
what was written on the First Set of Stones, or Tables. Also, most
everyone agrees that the same words were written on the seconds stones
plus some additional words.

However, it is almost certain that what Christians call the Ten
Commandments were not the only words written on the first stones.

In Exodus Chapter 24 verse 12, God called Moses and said, "Come up …
and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments
which I have written, that thou mayest teach them." (KJV)

Complete Jewish Bible version, "Come up …. I will give you the stone
Tablets with the Torah and mitzvot I have written on them, so that you
can teach them."

We know from ancient stone writings such as the Rosetta Stone that a
lot of words can be carved or written on a stone tablet if the letters
are small. The smaller the letter the easier and quicker it is to
carve also. While we don't know exactly how big the First Tablets
were, we can assume that the two stones were not bigger than a man
could carry. It was also intended that they be placed in the Ark of
the Covenant, which would limit their size.

While on the mountain, Moses is instructed from Chapter 24 to Chapter
31, which is a fair amount of instruction, We don't know how much of
this if any was inscribed on the stones, but almost certainly some of
it was. Since ancient written Hebrew did not include vowels, which we
can consider to be an ancient form of "shorthand" this would make it
easier to include more if not all of the "testimony" given to Moses in
Chapters 24 to 31 on the First Set of Stones.

In Exodus 31 verse 18, the two tables are described as "two tables of
testimony, tables of stone…" (KJV) and in Chapter 32 verse 15, the
stone tablets are described as "tablets of the testimony… inscribed on
both sides, on the front and on the back" (CJB)

To sum up, what Christians call the "Ten Commandments" were never
called the Ten Commandments in ancient times by Jewish authorities and
probably not by the earliest Christians Founders, all of whom were
Jewish.

The following is a timeline of the giving of the Law as written in
Exodus as it relates to the issue of the Ten Commandments, or Ten Words.

In Chapter 19, Moses and God converse several times.
In Chapter 20, God addresses the people directly and speaks what
Christians call the Ten Commandments. The people are frightened so
Moses approaches and God instructs him in Chapters 21 –23.
In Chapter 24, Moses and the Seventy Elders are summoned but first,
Moses "tells the people everything, including all the rulings," which
refers to the instruction from Chapters 21 – 23.
Chapter 24, Verse 4, Moses writes down all the words of God. He then
reads "the book of the covenant" which would probably include all the
words that God has thus far spoken.
Verse 9, Moses and the Seventy Elders then go up the Mountain.
Verse 12, God says to Moses, "Come up to me on the mountain, and stay
there. I will give you the stone tablets with the Torah and Mitzvot I
have written on them, so that you can teach them."
Notice the tablets contain both Torah and Mitzvot.
Moses stays on the mountains 40 days.
During this time, God instructs Moses from Chapter 25 up to Chapter 32.
Moses goes back down the mountain and breaks the first stones when he
sees the Israelites worshiping the golden calf.
Chapter 34, God says, "Cut yourself two tablets of stone like the
first ones; and I will inscribe on the tablets the words that were on
the first tablets, which you broke." One can assume that God then
does so.
God then addresses Moses, "Observe what I am ordering you to do
today." Please note the use of the present tense. God thus then gives
new instructions to Moses. Verses 11 – 26. None of the instructions
in Chapter 34 have been stated before as such. These are new
"commandments."
Chapter 34, verse 27, God says to Moses, "Write these words down,"
(on the second stones) "because they are the terms of the covenant I
have made with you and with Israel" The words that Moses writes down
are the words from Verses 11 to Verse 26, because God has already
written the words from the first stones.

In the KJV, Verses 27-28 are confusing because of mistranslations
and translator misunderstandings.

Verse 27. "And the Lord said unto Moses, Write thou these words, for
after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and
Israel.

Verse 28. "Moses was there with God forty days and nights; he did
neither eat bread or drink water. And "he" wrote upon the tables the
words of the covenant, the ten commandments."

The use of verse numbers is entirely arbitrary and a relatively modern
innovation. But notice the interjection of the sentence containing the
amount of time Moses spent on the mountain before the last sentence.
This implies that there should be a separation between the sentences.

The Complete Jewish Bible gives a more accurate translation.

Verse 27: …said to Moses, Write these words down, because they are the
terms of the covenant I have made with you and Israel.

Verse 28: Moses was there with God forty days and nights, during
which time he neither ate bread or drank water. (God) wrote on the
tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Words.

(The Ten Words are what Christians call the Ten Commandments)

From this more accurate translation in the CJB, we see that both God
and Moses wrote words on the tablets. First, God re-wrote the words
from the original, first set of stones, and Moses wrote the new
instructions which God gave him in verses 11 – 26.

One thing that might be confusing to readers is the format used by the
author of this chapter. It actually follows the recommended format of
a talk, speech or article which a person might write today. First,
tell the audience what you intend to say, second, say it, then lastly,
conclude by summing up what you said.

Chapter 34: Verse 1 is the introduction so to speak, "And the Lord
said….I will write upon these tablets the words that were in the first
tables, which thou brakest."

Chapter 34, verse 28 is the summation, "God wrote on the tablets the
words of the covenant, the Ten Words."

What Judge Roy Moore of Alabama calls the Ten Commandments is more or
less but not exactly the same Ten Things which Jewish people call the
Ten Words, Things or Statements. Most Christians and Jews agree that
these Ten Things were inscribed on the First Set of Stones which Moses
Broke, probably accompanied by other words, also. Most Christians and
Jews agree that these same Ten Things were inscribed by God on the
Second Set of Stones. Moses then wrote additional things (At a
minimum, Chapter 34, Verses 11-26). The first set of stones were
written on back and front. The second set of stones were also probably
written on both back and front.

The Ten Things which are announced by God to the people directly
(Chapter 20) and then inscribed by God on the first set of stones
probably accompanied by other "mitzvat" are not re-listed in Chapter
34 because it would be redundant to do so.

In Chapter 24, Moses has previously written down the words of God,
probably on paper, since it is called "the book of the covenant." The
covenant is then also inscribed on stone in order to have a permanent
record or just to look more impressive.

The announcement of the law to the people by Moses continues in
Chapter 35, and the giving of the law by God continues in the book of
Leviticus.

Jim McMeans

Here is the complete article from the Judaism 101 web site for those
who are interested.
Aseret ha-Dibrot: The "Ten Commandments"

Level: Intermediate
Aseret ha-Dibrot (in Hebrew)

According to Jewish tradition, G-d gave the Jewish people 613 mitzvot
(commandments). All 613 of those mitzvot are equally sacred, equally
binding and equally the word of G-d. All of these mitzvot are treated
as equally important, because human beings, with our limited
understanding of the universe, have no way of knowing which mitzvot
are more important in the eyes of the Creator. Pirkei Avot, a book of
the Mishnah, teaches "Be as meticulous in performing a 'minor' mitzvah
as you are with a 'major' one, because you don't know what kind of
reward you'll get for various mitzvot." It also says, "Run after the
most 'minor' mitzvah as you would after the most 'important' and flee
from transgression, because doing one mitzvah draws you into doing
another, and doing one transgression draws you into doing another, and
because the reward for a mitzvah is a mitzvah and the punishment for a
transgression is a transgression." In other words, every mitzvah is
important, because even the most seemingly trivial mitzvot draw you
into a pattern of leading your life in accordance with the Creator's
wishes, rather than in accordance with your own.

But what about the so-called "Ten Commandments," the words recorded in
Exodus 20, the words that the Creator Himself wrote on the two stone
tablets that Moses brought down from Mount Sinai (Ex. 31:18), which
Moses smashed upon seeing the idolatry of the golden calf (Ex. 32:19)?
In the Torah, these words are never referred to as the Ten
Commandments. In the Torah, they are called Aseret ha-D'varim (Ex.
34:28, Deut. 4:13 and Deut. 10:4). In rabbinical texts, they are
referred to as Aseret ha-Dibrot. The words d'varim and dibrot come
from the Hebrew root Dalet-Beit-Reish, meaning word, speak or thing;
thus, the phrase is accurately translated as the Ten Sayings, the Ten
Statements, the Ten Declarations, the Ten Words or even the Ten
Things, but not as the Ten Commandments, which would be Aseret ha-Mitzvot.

The Aseret ha-Dibrot are not understood as individual mitzvot; rather,
they are categories or classifications of mitzvot. Each of the 613
mitzvot can be subsumed under one of these ten categories, some in
more obvious ways than others. For example, the mitzvah not to work on
Shabbat rather obviously falls within the category of remembering the
Sabbath day and keeping it holy. The mitzvah to fast on Yom Kippur
fits into that category somewhat less obviously: all holidays are in
some sense a Sabbath, and the category encompasses any mitzvah related
to sacred time. The mitzvah not to stand aside while a person's life
is in danger fits somewhat obviously into the category against murder.
It is not particularly obvious, however, that the mitzvah not to
embarrass a person fits within the category against murder: it causes
the blood to drain from your face thereby shedding blood.
List of the Aseret ha-Dibrot

According to Judaism, the Aseret ha-Dibrot identify the following ten
categories of mitzvot. Other religions divide this passage
differently. See The "Ten Commandments" Controversy below. Please
remember that these are categories of the 613 mitzvot, which according
to Jewish tradition are binding only upon Jews. The only mitzvot
binding upon gentiles are the seven Noahic commandments.

1. Belief in G-d
This category is derived from the declaration in Ex. 20:2
beginning, "I am the L-rd, your G-d..."
2. Prohibition of Improper Worship
This category is derived from Ex. 20:3-6, beginning, "You shall
not have other gods..." It encompasses within it the prohibition
against the worship of other gods as well as the prohibition of
improper forms of worship of the one true G-d, such as worshiping G-d
through an idol.
3. Prohibition of Oaths
This category is derived from Ex. 20:7, beginning, "You shall not
take the name of the L-rd your G-d in vain..." This includes
prohibitions against perjury, breaking or delaying the performance of
vows or promises, and speaking G-d's name or swearing unnecessarily.
4. Observance of Sacred Times
This category is derived from Ex. 20:8-11, beginning, "Remember
the Sabbath day..." It encompasses all mitzvot related to Shabbat,
holidays, or other sacred time.
5. Respect for Parents and Teachers
This category is derived from Ex. 20:12, beginning, "Honor your
father and mother..."
6. Prohibition of Physically Harming a Person
This category is derived from Ex. 20:13, saying, "You shall not
murder."
7. Prohibition of Sexual Immorality
This category is derived from Ex. 20:13, saying, "You shall not
commit adultery."
8. Prohibition of Theft
This category is derived from Ex. 20:13, saying, "You shall not
steal." It includes within it both outright robbery as well as various
forms of theft by deception and unethical business practices. It also
includes kidnapping, which is essentially "stealing" a person.
9. Prohibition of Harming a Person through Speech
This category is derived from Ex. 20:13, saying, "You shall not
bear false witness against your neighbor." It includes all forms of
lashon ha-ra (sins relating to speech).
10. Prohibition of Coveting
This category is derived from Ex. 20:14, beginning, "You shall not
covet your neighbor's house..."

The Two Tablets: Duties to G-d and Duties to People

Judaism teaches that the first tablet, containing the first five
declarations, identifies duties regarding our relationship with G-d,
while the second tablet, containing the last five declarations,
identifies duties regarding our relationship with other people.

You may have noticed, however, that the fifth category, which is
included in the first tablet, is the category to honor father and
mother, which would seem to concern relationships between people. The
rabbis teach that our parents are our creators and stand in a
relationship to us akin to our relationship to the Divine. Throughout
Jewish liturgy, the Creator is referred to as Avinu Malkeinu, our
Father, our King. Disrespect to our biological creators is not merely
an affront to them; it is also an insult to the Creator of the
Universe. Accordingly, honor of father and mother is included on the
tablet of duties to G-d.

These two tablets are parallel and equal: duties to G-d are not more
important than duties to people, nor are duties to people more
important than duties to G-d. However, if one must choose between
fulfilling an obligation to G-d and fulfilling an obligation to a
person, of if one must prioritize them, Judaism teaches that the
obligation to a person should be fulfilled first. This principle is
supported by the story in Genesis 18, where Abraham is communing with
G-d and interrupts this meeting to fulfill the mitzvah of providing
hospitality to strangers (the three men who appear). The Talmud gives
another example, disapproving of a man who, engrossed in prayer, would
ignore the cries of a drowning man. When forced to choose between our
duties to a person and our duties to G-d, we must pursue our duties to
the person, because the person needs our help, but G-d does not need
our help.

The "Ten Commandments" Controversy

In the United States, a controversy has persisted for many years
regarding the placement of the "Ten Commandments" in public schools
and public buildings. But one critical question seems to have escaped
most of the public dialog on the subject: Whose "Ten Commandments"
should we post?

The general perception in this country is that the "Ten Commandments"
are part of the common religious heritage of Judaism, Catholicism and
Protestantism, part of the sacred scriptures that we all share, and
should not be controversial. But most people involved in the debate
seem to have missed the fact that these three religions divide up the
commandments in different ways! Judaism, unlike Catholicism and
Protestantism, considers "I am the L-rd, your G-d" to be the first
"commandment." Catholicism, unlike Judaism and Protestantism,
considers coveting property to be separate from coveting a spouse.
Protestantism, unlike Judaism and Catholicism, considers the
prohibition against idolatry to be separate from the prohibition
against worshipping other gods. No two religions agree on a single
list. So whose list should we post?

And once we decide on a list, what translation should we post? Should
Judaism's sixth declaration be rendered as "Thou shalt not kill" as in
the popular KJV translation, or as "Thou shalt not murder," which is a
bit closer to the connotations of the original Hebrew though still not
entirely accurate?

These may seem like trivial differences to some, but they are serious
issues to those of us who take these words seriously. When a
government agency chooses one version over another, it implicitly
chooses one religion over another, something that the First Amendment
prohibits. This is the heart of the controversy.

But there is an additional aspect of this controversy that is of
concern from a Jewish perspective. In Talmudic times, the rabbis
consciously made a decision to exclude daily recitation of the Aseret
ha-Dibrot from the liturgy because excessive emphasis on these
statements might lead people to mistakenly believe that these were the
only mitzvot or the most important mitzvot, and neglect the other 603
(Talmud Berakhot 12a). By posting these words prominently and
referring to them as "The Ten Commandments," (as if there weren't any
others, which is what many people think) schools and public buildings
may be teaching a message that Judaism specifically and consciously
rejected.

***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:

The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm

American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm

The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html

[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]

HRSepCnS · Historical Reality SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/

***************************************************************
. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote

"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"

That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.

It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.

*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************