alt.education

Darrell Stec wrote:

>:|buckeye wrote:
>:|
>:|> Darrell Stec wrote:
>:|>
>:|>>:|PseuDoeCyAnts wrote:
>:|>>:|
>:|>>:|> on Thu 27 Mar 2008 09:44:16a
>:|>>:|> Darrell Stec posted
>:|>>:|> in news:47ebcee0$0$12590$4c368faf@roadrunner.com:
>:|>>:|>
>:|>>:|>> buckeye wrote:
>:|>>:|>>
>:|>>:|>>> The author of The Declaration of Independence of the Thirteen
>:|>>:|>>> Colonies wouldn't agree that our laws and our government are
>:|>>:|>>> based on the Ten Commandments. Thomas Jefferson criticized the
>:|>>:|>>> notion that Christianity had any part in it. He argued that the
>:|>>:|>>> common law of England ? the basis of the laws of the colonies
>:|>>:|>>> ? couldn't have been influenced by Christianity, much less
>:|>>:|>>> the Ten Commandments. His argument? The common law existed in
>:|>>:|>>> England for 200 years before Christianity arrived there. His
>:|>>:|>>> conclusion? "Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of
>:|>>:|>>> the common law."
>:|>>:|>>
>:|>>:|> [- snip - ]
>:|>>:|>>
>:|>>:|>> I hope you realize, Buckeye, that I was not directing my
>:|>>:|>> comments toward you but rather that idiot Antoinin Scalia and
>:|>>:|>> those of his ilk.
>:|>>:|>>
>:|>>:|>
>:|>>:|> Scalia does not desire this nation's return to its religious
>:|>>:|> foundations. In that scenario, those who swallow the Papal Bull
>:|>>:|> with the concomitant Diet of Worms, are not embraced or welcomed
>:|>>:|> in under the warm and fuzzy delusive tent of a Christian gestalt.
>:|>>:|>
>:|>>:|> Catholics were largely outcasts in Revolutionary era America,
>:|>>:|> distrusted by many, not often believed to be friends of liberty,
>:|>>:|> as they believed that a human, who headed a Christian sect,
>:|>>:|> possessed the power, sceptered divinely, to dictate laws and to
>:|>>:|> crown the heads of foreign states.
>:|>>:|>
>:|>>:|> Samuel Adams even went as far as to assert that because of this,
>:|>>:|> Roman Catholics did no even deserve their religion to be tolerated
>:|>>:|> in America.
>:|>>:|>
>:|>>:|> /=======================================================/
>:|>>:|>
>:|>>:|> "In regard to Religeon, mutual tolleration in the
>:|>>:|> different professions thereof, is what all good and
>:|>>:|> candid minds in all ages have ever practiced; and both
>:|>>:|> by precept and example inculcated on mankind: And it is
>:|>>:|> now generally agreed among christians that this spirit
>:|>>:|> of toleration in the fullest extent consistent with the
>:|>>:|> being of civil society "is the chief characteristical
>:|>>:|> mark of the true church' & In so much that Mr. Lock has
>:|>>:|> asserted, and proved beyond the possibility of
>:|>>:|> contradiction on any solid ground, that such toleration
>:|>>:|> ought to be extended to all whose doctrines are not
>:|>>:|> subversive of society. The only Sects which he thinks
>:|>>:|> ought to be, and which by all wise laws are excluded
>:|>>:|> from such toleration, are those who teach Doctrines
>:|>>:|> subversive of the Civil Government under which they
>:|>>:|> live. The Roman Catholicks or Papists are excluded by
>:|>>:|> reason of such Doctrines as these 'that Princes
>:|>>:|> excommunicated may be deposed, and those they call
>:|>>:|> Hereticks may be destroyed without mercy; besides their
>:|>>:|> recognizing the Pope in so absolute a manner, in
>:|>>:|> subversion of Government, by introducing as far as
>:|>>:|> possible into the states, under whose protection they
>:|>>:|> enjoy life, liberty and property, that solecism in
>:|>>:|> politicks, Imperium in imperio leading directly to the
>:|>>:|> worst anarchy and confusion, civil discord, war and
>:|>>:|> blood shed
>:|>>:|>
>:|>>:|>
>:|>>:|> Samuel Adams, "The Rights of the Colonists", Nov. 20, 1772
>:|>>:|>
>:|>>:|> /=======================================================/
>:|>>:|>
>:|>>:|> The truth is that:
>:|>>:|> There Was Never In The Past;
>:|>>:|> Or Is there Presently;
>:|>>:|> Nor Will There Ever Be;
>:|>>:|> A State Founded Upon Christianity,
>:|>>:|> which is not also plagued with sectarianism.
>:|>>:|> The schisms are far too numerous and broad to ever be breeched.
>:|>>:|>
>:|>>:|> Christians cannot even agree upon the same Bible,
>:|>>:|> or whether Jesus' inherited 1/2 of his DNA from mom,
>:|>>:|> or if salvation comes through faith and acts,
>:|>>:|> or instead by faith alone.
>:|>>:|>
>:|>>:|> For all three of the above differences, in the past
>:|>>:|> Christians have murderously set upon Christians.
>:|>>:|> All sides in these conflicts believed theirs alone
>:|>>:|> had been given the divine right to kill humans justly;
>:|>>:|> "Thou Shal Not Kill", notwithstanding.
>:|>>:|>
>:|>>:|> Yet from within this bedlam, this foul pit of pandemonium,
>:|>>:|> which is the actuality of their "shared" faith,
>:|>>:|> they have the audacity to claim,
>:|>>:|> they are endowed with a higher morality,
>:|>>:|> and as such, the best to lead The Nation politically.
>:|>>:|
>:|>>:|
>:|>>:|Yet you forget that one had to be Catholic to own property in Maryland.
>:|>>:|You also forgot Oglethorpe's Georgia.
>:|>
>:|>
>:|> The previous poster is correct.
>:|> Catholics were not welcome, were not trusted in Colonial America. That
>:|> would continue into the 1800s and beyond.
>:|> There is ample historical evidence to support that
>:|>
>:|>
>:|> Maryland was Catholic only for a short period of time
>:|
>:|Define short period of time.

[Maryland]
http://www.companysj.com/v171/foundation.html

The character of this seventeenth-century colony was closely linked to the
situation of Catholicism in Protestant England, an outlawed and actively
suppressed religion. Catholics in England could neither vote nor hold
public office, were forbidden to worship in public, and were subject to
many other oppressions. Jesuits there during this time had been persecuted
and imprisoned; some had been executed. It was in this context that
Maryland was an offer of haven for Catholics and Jesuits.
Tim Riordan measuring artifacts

Archaeologist Timothy Riordan gives scale to three lead coffins that St.
Mary's Church yielded.

Ironically, however, Maryland was not a Catholic colony. While many of the
leaders were Catholic, the majority of settlers were Protestant: Anglicans,
Puritans, Presbyterians, and Quakers among them. Lord Baltimore's
declaration of "liberty of conscience" meant that in Maryland religion was
to be a private matter and all Christians were to practice their faith in
freedom. To further reduce the possibility of religious animosity
destroying the colony, Lord Baltimore separated religion and government in
Maryland. These concepts of religious tolerance and separation of church
and state were revolutionary in the seventeenth century and made early
Maryland an innovative social experiment.

[snip]


When Philip Calvert died in 1682, Maryland was a growing colony in which
religious pluralism prevailed. Within a decade, however, a revolution by
Protestants toppled Lord Baltimore's government, led to the appointment of
a royal governor, and brought an end to religious freedom in the colony. In
1692, the Church of England was established as Maryland's official
religion. Two years later the colony's government moved to Annapolis. St.
Mary's was soon abandoned, as government was its sole purpose for existing.
Within a decade or so, Jesuit laborers dismantled the chapel and used its
bricks to build a manor house a few miles from St. Mary's. Thus ended the
first experiment in religious freedom in English America. It would be a
century before Lord Baltimore's dream of "liberty of conscience" again
prevailed in Maryland.

During the intervening period, Catholics suffered oppression and lost their
political rights, and Jesuits were persecuted. . .

>:|
>:|> in its history and
>:|> as for the other you mentioned:
>:|>
>:|> During the twenty-one years of its proprietary government Georgia
>:|> struggled along, rather in spite of the remote designs and unpractical
>:|> restrictions of its trustees than because of their indefatigable labour,
>:|> sterling integrity, and single-minded philanthropy. As a frontier
>:|> settlement against the Catholic colonies of Spain, Georgia speedily
>:|> justified its existence. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06460a.htm
>:|>
>:|And other links on the history have statements right after that to the
>:|effect that however in short time the Catholics and Spaniards (who were the
>:|source of fear of Catholics) soon moved in.
>:|
>:|The poster was and is wrong. Two colonies were majorally Catholic. Others
>:|were not.
>:|


The poster was correct.

Maryland was not Majority Catholic see URL and except further up

Also see

http://books.google.com/books?id=sCY4sAjTGIYC&pg=PA604&lpg=PA604&dq=catholic+protestant+religious+struggles+in+maryland&source=web&ots=BwruskrREL&sig=bu4RWFNvT9QEc4U6sYijBMvMrBk&hl=en
http://tinyurl.com/ysmlz5


[Georgia]
http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/nge/Article.jsp?id=h-2922
The Early Church

The Catholic Church established itself in Georgia long before James
Oglethorpe founded the colony

in 1733. Spanish priests came to Georgia in the sixteenth and seventeenth
centuries seeking to convert Native Americans. The Spanish missions had
limited success. Although the Jesuit and Franciscan orders managed to win
over some locals, Catholicism failed to persevere once the British arrived.

Oglethorpe led the British effort to establish a colony in Georgia. He
hoped to create an enlightened society in Britain's southernmost American
colony, while the British wanted Georgia to serve as a buffer zone between
(Protestant) British Carolina to the north and (Catholic) Spanish Florida
to the south. Oglethorpe encouraged such diverse, often oppressed, groups
as the Lutheran Salzburgers, who established the Ebenezer settlement, and
Spanish and German Jews to settle in the new colony. In recognition of its
role as a military buffer and a haven for religious outcasts, however, the
colony forbade the practice of Catholicism. When Georgia converted to a
royal colony in the 1750s, the ban on Catholicism remained.

Catholics would not find acceptance in Georgia until the American
Revolution (1775-83). . .

There is a great deal of primary source documentation I can provide that
will further fleshout that the original poster was correct and you are
incorret on this matter

check out the Quebec Act
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_Act

including this section:
Effect on the Thirteen Colonies
*****************************************************************
http://colonial-america.suite101.com/article.cfm/a_declaration_of_rights

The First Continental Congress
A Declaration of Rights: What Unified American Colonies October 1774

© Roger Saunders

Dec 4, 2007
Carpenter's Hall, Public Domain
The actual causes of the American Revolution: Boston Port Act, Quebec Act;
denial of trial by peers, peaceful assembly and royal charters are outlined
in this protest.
The British Parliament and the Colonies

In the first two paragraphs of this petition the first American
Congressman, meeting at Carpenter's Hall in Philadelphia, state the reasons
that would lead to the Revolutionary War. They are petitioning the King
because there was a prevalent feeling that it was Parliament who was the
oppressive arm of the government and that the King just wasn’t aware of the
trials through which his ministers were putting his British-American
subjects. These are the problems with Parliament that the Continental
Congress detailed.

1. The claim to sovereign legislative and taxation jurisdiction over the
Colonies
2. The illegal use of the Courts of Admiralty to try criminal cases.
3. Undertaking the Governors and Judges salaries, giving them arbitrary
power
4. Transporting accused treasonous colonists to England for trial.
5. The Boston Port Act, which shut down the Port of Boston until the
Boston Tea Party was paid for
6. The Quebec Act which gave Canada the Ohio River Valley and legalized
Catholicism

***************************************************
http://www.archives.gov/nhprc/annotation/march-2002/religion-founding-fathers.html

Religion played a significant role in the coming of the American
Revolution. In New York, the demand by some for an American Anglican
bishopric raised fears of heightened ecclesiastical controls similar to the
civil controls being mandated by Parliament. American animosity and fear of
Catholics increased, especially when Parliament passed the Quebec Act in
1774. The act extended southward the borders of the captured Catholic
French territory to the Ohio River and guaranteed "the free Exercise of the
Religion of the Church of Rome." The Declaration of Independence listed the
Quebec Act as one of the charges against the king and Parliament.
Ironically, because of America's desperate need for support in its struggle
for independence, Congress allied itself with Catholic France, and His
Christian Majesty Louis XVI was regularly toasted in America as a true
friend of the new republic.

*******************************************************
Anti-Catholicism in the United States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Catholicism_in_the_United_States


Want more?


***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:

The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm

American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm

The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html

[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]

HRSepCnS · Historical Reality SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/

***************************************************************
. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote

"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"

That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.

It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.

*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************