alt.education

On Apr 11, 2:05=A0pm, Bob LeChevalier wrote:
> Peter Franks wrote:
> >> False and you can say it is till the cows come home. Doing so will not =
make
> >> it so.
>
> >What day is considered the nations birthday?
>
> "considered" =3D cultural choice
> Not necessarily legal reality.
>
> >What is the significant document that established that day?
>
> The resolution for independence, approved on 2 Jul 1776, which was
> announced to the public on that day. =A0At the time, John Adams wrote
> that the 2nd was the day to be celebrated, but people chose to
> celebrate the 4th. =A0
>
> Of course the reality is that we became a sovereign nation only when
> the Treaty of Paris was signed in 1783. =A0
>
> >Not good enough for you.
>
> >How about Lincoln:
>
> Not relevant. =A0It's a famous speech, but it is still only an opinion.
>
> >The Declaration of Independence IS the founding document for this country=
.
>
> A "country" is nothing but a legal organization of territory under a
> system of laws, which is recognized as sovereign by other nations.
> The legal organization was the constitution, and before that the
> Articles of Confederation. =A0Whether the Articles and the Constitution
> pertain to the same "country" is a semantics argument which cannot be
> settled. =A0One was a legal successor to the other. =A0The most important
> sovereign recognition was conveyed by the Treaty of Paris, though one
> can argue for the first sovereign recognitions by France and
> Netherlands.
>
> Part of the nation thought of itself as a mere confederation of states
> who were the real sovereign entities, until the end of the civil war.
> Citizenship was determined in the state by state laws, not in the
> nation (until the 14th amendment). =A0So arguably we weren't a nation
> until the 14th amendment was passed.
>
> lojbab

Yeah, well, the southern states thought they were in a sovereign
nation before 1868, as did S.C. during Jackson's term. Jackson showed
them wrong, as they were proved wrong in '61--65. Both cases before
the 14th amendment passed in 1868. We were unarguabley a nation, both
times they were shown they were wrong before the 14th Amendment
passed, as we would kick anyone's butt who said or did anything to
show we were not. Semantics mean very little when you have troops
shooting at you, trying to kill you, because you wanted something to
mean one thing, and they wanted it to mean another. Citizenship was
determined if you were born in this country, or gained citizenship.
That's why Arnie, no matter how good a man he is, will never be
President, and that goes all the was back to the beginning, not 1868.
Even Alexander Hamilton was excluded. When it came down to it (and we
can think our deity for it), the Union had more immigrants, (southern
blockaded harbors), more factories, more raw materials and a navy. It
had nothing to do with sematics, it had to do with whipping someone
until they quit, and the will and ability to do just that. So
unarguable we were a nation not when Jefferson wrote the long verison
of the middle finger to King George. But when we discarded the
Articles of Confederation and implemented the Constitution (Which
could have been called treason, but you know what they say about
treason). It just took a while for all the people to accept it.
Remember Robert E. Lee, as you stand on the front porch of his
plantation, look across the Potomac and see the wonderful sights of
Washington, (not looking down as the National Cemetary at Arlingtion
reminding us of what it took to get us here) and remember that even
General Lee regarded Virginia as his COUNTRY in 1861. We just talked
him out of it with a hailstorm of .58 caliber miniballs, and more
artillery shells than you can count. Along with food to eat as the
Union fought, of course. That is always a plus, along with more
soldiers than they knew what to do with. Kind of like playing RISK,
(I can afford to lose 20,000 men, can you?) So much for semantics.
Regards, Ken Hogan